Comments on: Impressions from the House of Commons (Drinks… and crime debate) http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/house-of-commons-criminal-justice-system/ There Is Nothing To Fear From Truth Wed, 21 Dec 2011 06:16:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Petra http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/house-of-commons-criminal-justice-system/comment-page-1/#comment-9 Petra Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:40:43 +0000 http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/?p=158#comment-9 Steven, thanks for sharing your views. I agree, there are far too many new 'offences', invented by our pathetically politically correct elites, that aren't crimes and should never be treated as such. (The case of the hotelier couple who got charged with criminal offence simply for arguing about religion with a muslim guest is one such appalling case I'd say. Freedom of speech doesn't seem to apply when it comes to certain issues or groups.) What is staggering though is that a majority of serious criminals (burglars, robbers, violent attackers, even rapists and pedophiles in some cases) aren't sent to jail at all in this country; and that applies even to those who commit repeated offences. What a contrast with say the US three strikes & out laws that see very long (often life term) sentences handed to those who commit three offences. While it may well be that those who commit their first crime will only get worse if imprisoned, the fact is that - as we see in the UK where most aren't jailed - they will, in a vast majority of cases, continue on the path of crime anyway. I'd argue that if they are let free it only encourages them to become more daring and violent further ahead, knowing there won't be any punishment. When jailed at the very least they cannot cause harm to others. As per recent statistics UK 'violent crime' rates are not only one of the highest in Europe, and higher than in the US, but also higher than South Africa (which has one of world's worst records of violent crime). The numbers of young offenders here are also quite shocking. (And of course most are not punished in any appropriate way.) Having lived in Brazil for many years, where a huge percentage of crime and murders are committed by 10-15 year olds, it's shocking to see something similar (though at a far smaller scale thankfully) starting to happen here. Steven, thanks for sharing your views. I agree, there are far too many new ‘offences’, invented by our pathetically politically correct elites, that aren’t crimes and should never be treated as such. (The case of the hotelier couple who got charged with criminal offence simply for arguing about religion with a muslim guest is one such appalling case I’d say. Freedom of speech doesn’t seem to apply when it comes to certain issues or groups.) What is staggering though is that a majority of serious criminals (burglars, robbers, violent attackers, even rapists and pedophiles in some cases) aren’t sent to jail at all in this country; and that applies even to those who commit repeated offences. What a contrast with say the US three strikes & out laws that see very long (often life term) sentences handed to those who commit three offences.

While it may well be that those who commit their first crime will only get worse if imprisoned, the fact is that – as we see in the UK where most aren’t jailed – they will, in a vast majority of cases, continue on the path of crime anyway. I’d argue that if they are let free it only encourages them to become more daring and violent further ahead, knowing there won’t be any punishment. When jailed at the very least they cannot cause harm to others.

As per recent statistics UK ‘violent crime’ rates are not only one of the highest in Europe, and higher than in the US, but also higher than South Africa (which has one of world’s worst records of violent crime). The numbers of young offenders here are also quite shocking. (And of course most are not punished in any appropriate way.) Having lived in Brazil for many years, where a huge percentage of crime and murders are committed by 10-15 year olds, it’s shocking to see something similar (though at a far smaller scale thankfully) starting to happen here.

]]> By: Petra http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/house-of-commons-criminal-justice-system/comment-page-1/#comment-8 Petra Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:12:11 +0000 http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/?p=158#comment-8 HM, thanks for your comment. I can understand your position, but have to say I'd much prefer to see the society (and our justice system) care about protecting the public and the victims than worry about criminals' comforts. Jail is not supposed to be a holiday camp, although many seem to come quite close these days! You can't have both things really - if you don't punish criminals (ie incarcerate them) you'll be co-responsible for their next victims. Now, I'm not advocating we chop-off thieves' hands etc (though countries that do seem to have very low crime rates - sorry, couldn't resist), but I'd very much like to see far more severe penalties, as are common for example in the US criminal justice system. HM, thanks for your comment. I can understand your position, but have to say I’d much prefer to see the society (and our justice system) care about protecting the public and the victims than worry about criminals’ comforts. Jail is not supposed to be a holiday camp, although many seem to come quite close these days! You can’t have both things really – if you don’t punish criminals (ie incarcerate them) you’ll be co-responsible for their next victims. Now, I’m not advocating we chop-off thieves’ hands etc (though countries that do seem to have very low crime rates – sorry, couldn’t resist), but I’d very much like to see far more severe penalties, as are common for example in the US criminal justice system.

]]> By: StevenL http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/house-of-commons-criminal-justice-system/comment-page-1/#comment-4 StevenL Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:34:47 +0000 http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/?p=158#comment-4 "Are we too soft on crime?" We're too soft on some crimes and too heavy handed on others. There's all sorts of offences on the statute book that probably shouldn't be there (I notice 'red tape' is one of your bugbears) to begin with. "Can criminals be rehabiliated?" Yes, no and maybe. Some of these so-called violent crimes are just two drunk young men fighting each other, one wins (and goes a bit too far), the other wants the compo and goes to the cops - in these kind of circumstance prison (and they do end up there) is probably the most damaging option, rendering them unemployable and introducing them to lots of proper criminals. People involved in organised crime and the who are the product of 'crime families' will most likely always be like they are - highly dangerous. There is also a lot of ground in the middle. “Are we too soft on crime?”

We’re too soft on some crimes and too heavy handed on others. There’s all sorts of offences on the statute book that probably shouldn’t be there (I notice ‘red tape’ is one of your bugbears) to begin with.

“Can criminals be rehabiliated?”

Yes, no and maybe. Some of these so-called violent crimes are just two drunk young men fighting each other, one wins (and goes a bit too far), the other wants the compo and goes to the cops – in these kind of circumstance prison (and they do end up there) is probably the most damaging option, rendering them unemployable and introducing them to lots of proper criminals.

People involved in organised crime and the who are the product of ‘crime families’ will most likely always be like they are – highly dangerous. There is also a lot of ground in the middle.

]]> By: HM http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/house-of-commons-criminal-justice-system/comment-page-1/#comment-2 HM Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:46:45 +0000 http://www.moneyhoneyblog.com/?p=158#comment-2 Petra, Many thanks for your candid and stimulating comments, However seductive the self righteous indignation of flogging the wrongdoer may seem I reminded of Plato's comments on how to judge how reasonable or civilised a society is. He always looked to how that society treated those who were unable or unwilling to live within their rules and regulations. I understand criminality is about balance but I would be concerned the day we stop worrying about criminals comforts and rights may be the day we lose our humanity. HM Petra,
Many thanks for your candid and stimulating comments, However seductive the self righteous indignation of flogging the wrongdoer may seem I reminded of Plato’s comments on how to judge how reasonable or civilised a society is. He always looked to how that society treated those who were unable or unwilling to live within their rules and regulations. I understand criminality is about balance but I would be concerned the day we stop worrying about criminals comforts and rights may be the day we lose our humanity.
HM

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